Meeting IRC log

--- Log opened Sun Mar 16 13:05:09 2008 13:05 -!- mako [i=mako@bork.hampshire.edu] has joined #netservices 13:05 -!- Irssi: #netservices: Total of 2 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 1 normal] 13:05 -!- Irssi: Join to #netservices was synced in 1 secs 13:05 arhola 13:05 AaronSw: hola 13:05 <@AaronSw> hi 13:05 the fsf board meeting is wrapping up 13:05 and the in person group is like 20m away and waiting for the word from me 13:05 <@AaronSw> ok 13:13 sobby/gobby server on epoxy.media.mit.edu 13:30 -!- mako changed the topic of #netservices to: wiki: http://wiki.mako.cc/Network_services | gobby: epoxy.media.mit.edu:6522 13:34 <@AaronSw> let me know when the call starts 13:40 people are on their way 13:40 5-10 minutes, i suspect 13:57 -!- bcs [n=brett@fsf/staff/bcs] has joined #netservices 13:58 -!- bkuhn [n=bkuhn@sflc/staff/conservancy.president.bkuhn] has joined #netservices 13:58 Hi. 13:58 <@AaronSw> +Aaron 13:59 -!- henrypool1 [n=henrypoo@terminus-est.gnu.org] has joined #netservices 14:00 <@AaronSw> I muted myself to hide the hum. 14:00 -!- vasile [n=vasile@terminus-est.gnu.org] has joined #netservices 14:01 AaronSw: Oh, okay, thanks. 14:01 -!- mlinksva_ [n=cc@terminus-est.gnu.org] has joined #netservices 14:02 -!- mlinksva_ is now known as help 14:03 -!- help [n=cc@terminus-est.gnu.org] has quit Client Quit 14:04 -!- mlinksva_ [n=cc@terminus-est.gnu.org] has joined #netservices 14:05 -!- luisv [n=louie@terminus-est.gnu.org] has joined #netservices 14:05 <@AaronSw> calling in: Aaron, Kragen, Bradley 14:05 AaronSw: I believe so, yes. 14:07 So, what do I do after I apt-get install gobby? 14:07 * bkuhn wonders the same as Brett. 14:08 run 'gobby' 14:09 and hit the second icon 14:10 Oh, whoops, I fail at apt-get. :P 14:10 Thanks. 14:10 I think I'm in there. 14:11 * AaronSw wishes he had a network service version of gobby 14:12 AaronSw: web service, you mean? 14:12 <@AaronSw> not necessarily; I'm trying X11-protocol now 14:13 <@AaronSw> in person: Brett, Mike, Henri, Mako, Luis, Gabriel, James 14:16 AaronSw: heh 14:16 grr 14:16 seems likeyou made it 14:16 <@AaronSw> yay for x11 forwarding, i suppose 14:19 (are ethics ever easier?) 14:40 does mako's wiki have a table format? 14:46 luisv: yes, definitely 14:46 -!- mode/#netservices [+o mako] by AaronSw 14:46 <@mako> luisv: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Table 14:52 <@AaronSw> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html 14:53 -!- jwyg [n=jwyg@78.147.96.102] has joined #netservices 14:53 Hi all! 14:53 Its Jonathan Gray from the OKF. 14:53 <@mako> jwyg: oh hey there! 14:53 <@mako> jwyg: can you call in? 14:53 <@AaronSw> Hi. 14:54 I am just about to now - I hope. 14:55 <@mako> we have shared utopian visions and done introductions and are currently taking the long road through a list of examples 14:55 <@mako> although we're currently sort of distracted 14:56 ok - great! 14:56 I just spoke to Rufus - who unfortunately can't make it due to heavy academic workload... 14:57 -!- gabaug [n=gabe@terminus-est.gnu.org] has joined #netservices 14:58 mako: OTOH, I think you are right to back to list of examples. 14:58 ... because I think the better thing would be to figure out what the "concerns" are with existing services. 14:58 I really think the best outcome of this process is actually specific critiques and concerns about existing services are a good thing. 15:04 <@mako> bkuhn: great, we'll go back to it in a minute 15:16 <@AaronSw> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Kragen/Edited_pages&action=history 15:19 bad news: my flight is delayed by two hours; good news: that means I can make dinner, at least partially 15:19 Did someone here call in? 15:20 <@AaronSw> http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2007/11/gmail-api-for-greasemonkey.html 15:21 <@AaronSw> I want to qualify Kragen's praise of Gmail -- Google controls the API in such a way that their particular interface style is fairly tightly coupled to the server 15:22 agreed 15:31 -!- e_s_p [n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro] has joined #netservices 15:31 < e_s_p> Hello all! 15:31 * e_s_p is Evan Prodromou. 15:32 did anyone wish rms happy birthday? 15:34 can someone add ebay to our list of services? 15:40 Would you speak up? 15:44 vasile: was that directed at me or Kragen? 15:44 mako: FWIW, class="wikitable" per the mediawiki documentation doesn't seem to work 15:44 bcs: How do you mean it doesn't scale? 15:45 bkuhn: kragen 15:45 He's not net.connected. 15:45 bkuhn: It's impractical to save all the comments on your journal by doing File->Save on every post. 15:45 ah, ok 15:46 feck, I hate wiki syntaxes 15:47 < e_s_p> luisv: I'll check on the wikitable thing 15:47 bcs: No, that was my point. I have a script that does a full XML pull of everything. 15:47 < e_s_p> I think you have to have a particular bit flipped somewhere 15:48 So, I don't need to do file save, I have a script that can mirror even large ones in the matter of 20 minutes or so. 15:48 e_s_p: I was trying to use it here: http://wiki.mako.cc/Network_services/Reference_services 15:48 < e_s_p> I assumed so 15:48 bkuhn: Yeah, I know, but someone in here suggested File->Save as an alternative too. 15:48 Maybe half-joking. 15:49 oh! ;) 15:49 But that of course goes to the heart of the technology have/have-not issue. 15:49 Yeah. 15:52 The tech have/have-not divide *might* be beyond the scope of our inquiry in that it is a given. 15:55 Not sure. This goes to our earlier point about considering whether it was the intent of the service provider is to use the technology "have-not-ness" to lock people in and control them, or if it's a mere availability issue. 15:58 s/might/must/ 15:58 unless we want to (1) admit we have no hope of actually accomplishing anything or (2) we all cancel our flights home 15:58 and stay here 16:00 I don't mean to say we should consider solving the problem.  I'm  angling toward questioning the degree to which we consider technology deprivation in our analysis. 16:01 I think it has to be somewhat in our analysis.  If only someone who understands the API deeply and has studied can move their data off, maybe the service isn't effectively Free. 16:02 I call what he is descirbing the tyranny of freedom. 16:04 * e_s_p is glad he didn't buy a ticket to Boston. B-) 16:04 < e_s_p> luisv: "wikitable" is only available on Wikipedia. 16:04 < e_s_p> For complicated reasons. 16:05 < e_s_p> Mako could add it to his wiki by editing MediaWiki:Common.css 16:05 < e_s_p> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css <-- viz. q.v. ipso fatso 16:11 < e_s_p> Well 16:11 < e_s_p> The meeting seems to be going well so far 16:11 yeah 16:11 < e_s_p> Such a huge subject, it's surprising we haven't drifted too far yet 16:11 though we haven't moved very far :) 16:13 I think an important action item we should consider is to publish a series of position papers that take some of these examples and just raise the questions of concern re: freedom in a concise ways. Something like from a committee endorsed by FSF would have a lot of weight and get interest in thinking about these issues. 16:14 < e_s_p> That's a lot of work 16:14 < e_s_p> Also, it seems only fair to measure them against a relatively objective metric, like a Free Services Definition 16:14 Indeed, no question. But I am not sure what other actions we might take to impact that issue that aren't a lot of work. 16:14 < e_s_p> bkuhn: agreed on that 16:15 < e_s_p> One problem I'd like to address is time. 16:15 -!- AaronSw_ [n=AaronSw@c-76-102-175-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #netservices 16:15 < e_s_p> Can a service that made X or Y mistake ever be called "Free" in the future? 16:16 < e_s_p> For example, a service that leaked private data, intentionally or not. 16:16 < e_s_p> (If that becomes part of our definition, if we decide to make a definition.) 16:16 Back to your earlier point, I am not complete convinced that the first thing to do is to latch onto a definition of free/non-freedom. 16:16 As I argued earlier in the call, the Free Software world didn't have its first "definition" for nearly 10 years from its inception. 16:17 < e_s_p> Fair enough 16:17 < e_s_p> At that point, there was a lot of available software 16:17 < e_s_p> That could reasonably be called "Free" 16:17 We may not known enough as a community yet to begin defining; we may just want to raise issues of concern and have various axises to consider things on. 16:17 < e_s_p> And part of the value of a definition was drawing a line between the packages available 16:18 < e_s_p> So, I think the big value of having a definition is as a carrot for service implementers today 16:18 < e_s_p> I realize that's not necessarily a goal of this group 16:19 Right, exactly. I think we don't even know yet the answer to the question of whether or not any web service is actually Free. We do know some things that look non-Free, and some things that raise concerns. I think identifying those in a more fuzzy way (but formally published with the weight of an endorsed committee) is a good first step. 16:19 < e_s_p> I could get behind that 16:19 I think it's not clear what the goal of the group is yet; I would guess that about half want to make a definition first. ;) 16:19 < e_s_p> I could also get behind endorsing something like the very simple OSD as a first step. 16:20 < e_s_p> I think the goal is "get people smart about Freedom and services talking together" 16:20 < e_s_p> Crud 16:21 < e_s_p> Ekiga no longer wants to forward my voice to the meeting 16:22 I think a free services definition is a lot harder and less useful than it seems the rest of you do. 16:22 I'm with you vasile, I don't think it is useful at all. 16:22 I'd like to discuss it at some point, if only to just note the view. 16:22 < e_s_p> vasile: if you insist on a *good* one, sure 16:22 < e_s_p> B-) 16:22 Good is hard, of course. 16:23 < e_s_p> I think the OSD is an OK first step 16:23 I see e_s_p's point of getting new web services to aspire to something. But, publishing critiques of existing services can help us get there. 16:23 <@mako> yesk, i agree 16:24 My worry about a definition is that the issues are so complex that any definition will be somewhat wrong. 16:24 < e_s_p> neat 16:24 <@mako> we're starting again 16:24 Different web services are going to respect these values to different 16:24 degrees and in different combinations. It's hard to evaluate all 16:24 these values at once and come up with one value for on a freedom 16:24 scale. Evaluating a service on 6 or more different freedom value 16:24 scales, and comparing those combined values against a freedom standard 16:24 will inevitably involve comparing apples to oranges (how much privacy 16:24 < e_s_p> bkuhn: but you could say the same about Free Software or Free Cultural Works 16:24 protection = how much mobility protection?). Because freedom isn't 16:24 binary, and because it is evaluated across many axes, a freedom 16:24 definition that enables us to identify free and non-free things is 16:25 inherently problematic. 16:25 great. 16:25 I am here 16:25 but can't jump to a mic quickly. :) 16:25 (why have I not heard of civicactions.com before?) 16:25 luisv: Ask Henri. :) 16:26 gah, my network cable keeps falling out 16:27 luisv: We have another one over here if you want it. 16:28 thanks 16:30 By the time I got my mic working again, we had moved on. I added cryptographic because, for some services, if it isn't offered, there are serious security/privacy concerns (such as online backup services) 16:30 -!- AaronSw [n=AaronSw@c-76-102-175-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) 16:31 ... But I actually agree with mako that I'm not sure privacy/security belong on the list at all. 16:31 -!- e_s_p [n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro] has left #netservices [] 16:33 lol (no mic on) 16:35 I am not clear reliability matters if you have everything else. Reliability only matters to the extent to which it impacts the other axises. 16:37 Reliability matters, but doesn't strike me as a freedom issue. 16:37 And, bkuhn is right that if reliability isn't present but other things are, market effects apply. 16:38 yes, by "matter" I meant "matters as a freedom issue". It's a kitten. ;0 16:39 * vasile once required people attending one of his events to sign a liability waiver that included as a final clause "God hates kittens" 16:40 Privacy might be like reliability in that if transparency and the other values are there, privacy gets handled by market forces to the extent people value it. 16:41 Yeah, probably 16:42 -!- e_s_p [n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro] has joined #netservices 16:42 * e_s_p disconnected and forgot the name of the channel. 16:58 eek, gobby stopped moving. :) 16:58 sorry vasile, didn't even read your whole paragraph before commenting :-/ 16:58 No worries. 16:58 there we go, damn GUIs@! 16:59 vasile: take it. ;) 17:00 < e_s_p> I count 4 communication channels open right now for this group 17:01 < e_s_p> I might be maxing out on my attention-switching capacity 17:01 4? Are you folks talking behind my back? 17:01 heh 17:02 We don't really need the IRC channel given the gobby chat; I'm only favoring IRC because it actually has a working emacs client. ;) 17:02 gobby irc is pretty bad. 17:02 vasile: actually....you call values "means to the ends", but then you call "privacy/..." ends - when they are values...so...I think your usage are not consistent? 17:03 Like I said, it's just words. The point is there's a distinction.  I don't think we're at the point of characterizing the distinction. 17:11 I've created a new 'Notes on Web Sites' document 17:11 I agree with vasile.  My strong argument that AGPL shouldn't get ignored isn't designed to say it should "just be improved to solve anything".  I think it's merely a key tool in a larger system to solve the problem. 17:11 (FWIW) 17:12 Agreed.  One of the AGPL's strengths is that it focuses on a problem and does a lot to solve it.  We face a range of problems, so no one piece of the solution is going to address everything. 17:12 In other words, I do think we can't solve this problem with AGPL, but I agree we can't solve it with only the AGPL or some better version of it. 17:12 er, I had bad negatives in that last utterance: 17:13 Yeah, I can't parse it. 17:13 rewriting now... 17:13 In other words, I think we cannot solve the larger, complete problem with*out* the AGPL, but I also agree we can't merely improve the AGPL to solve all the other problems. 17:14 I agree. 17:15 -!- henrypool1 [n=henrypoo@terminus-est.gnu.org] has left #netservices [] 17:15 * mako nods to bkuhn 17:16 mako: this irc log should probably get tossed in the wiki and locked against editing. 17:16 <@mako> vasile: i have a log 17:16 <@mako> vasile: i'll do that 17:20 < AaronSw_> http://www.idcommons.net/ 17:20 http://wiki.idcommons.net/index.php/Identity_Rights_Agreements 17:25 The 4th is the wiki, I think 17:25 Gobby, voice, 2 irc channels 17:26 oh, irc + pseudo-gobby-irc 17:26 0.1! 17:33 so who is volunteering to be stallman and maintain web-emacs for 20 years? 17:34 (he is obviously right about writing code as a critical way of moving forward, despite my mocking tone) 17:37 I am somewhat concerned I sent us down this road, because doing software projects take such time and have a high probability of failure and may not get attention to this issue. 17:38 I actually thinking that publishing a series of papers analyzing existing web services and our concerns about them might be a better first step. 17:38 "A Survey of Freedom in Network Services" 17:39 yeah 17:39 Actually, Kragen's partly wrong -- GNU Manifesto, as published the very first time in October 1984 (I think, might be off by a year), announced that RMS was starting emacs "over Thanksgiving". 17:40 s/starting emacs/starting the GNU version of Emacs/ 17:43 <@mako> bkuhn: i'd like to come back to your suggestions 17:43 <@mako> bkuhn: includin the committee and papers 17:43 ok 17:43 vasile: I see, maybe we should have a section just on that, I'll do it. 17:44 Done 17:44 < AaronSw_> I think a free software Gmail clone would be very important 17:44 -!- AaronSw_ is now known as AaronSw 17:47 Instead of the FSF creating a new network service, I've made a note suggesting we work with existing services 17:47 AaronSw: yeah, flickr or gmail would be huuuuge. 17:47 and with projects they use 17:47 to make them more free-service friendly 17:48 gabaug: that wouldn't hurt, but I think to build credibility fsf also has to do one itself 17:49 luisv: maybe...working closely with existing extremely popular projects could earn the FSF that credibility 17:50 mlinksva_: very good point 17:52 < e_s_p> Nicely said, Aaron! 17:52 < e_s_p> AaronSw: nicely said 17:52 < AaronSw> thanks 17:53 < e_s_p> I'll stop congratulating you now 17:53 < e_s_p> OK, one more time 17:53 < e_s_p> Well said! 17:53 < e_s_p> B-) 17:54 someone who actually uses the web should probably take the lead on this, sadly 17:54 < AaronSw> hehe 17:56 luisv: I agree with you, but RMS sees the worries here, and I can imagine him endorsing this committee as officially appointed by FSF to operate on this issue. 17:57 bkuhn: yeah 17:57 my worry is that committees don't write good manifestos ;) 17:57 I agree he can't effectively work on the issue day in and day out since he's not really a hard core services user, but I know he wants this issue addressed. 17:57 That's a good point. 18:01 absolutely great group 18:02 http://www.fsf.org/news/FreedomForWebServices <- I had no idea this was announced, I thought it was completely private 18:05 < AaronSw> the facebook thing would be a good revealing errors post 18:06 +1 18:07 actually 18:07 what I want 18:07 is a Free delicious clone ;) 18:07 (if we use it for this project, the more the better ;) 18:07 Wasn't there one that got announced on slashdot? 18:07 < mlinksva_> scuttle? 18:07 yeah 18:07 but development has stopped 18:08 could be forked 18:08 I was afraid you would say something like that. 18:08 I hear that is a freedom 18:08 :) 18:08 < mlinksva_> cc is using it for a project 18:08 < mlinksva_> i haven't kept track but i imagine our fork is on sourceforge 18:16 lol 18:16 Thanks to Mako for organizing this and everyone for attending. 18:16 -!- AaronSw [n=AaronSw@c-76-102-175-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit 18:17 < e_s_p> Hey, this was great 18:18 -!- bkuhn [n=bkuhn@sflc/staff/conservancy.president.bkuhn] has quit "Back online tomorrow morning US/Eastern." 18:18 -!- gabaug [n=gabe@terminus-est.gnu.org] has quit "Leaving." 18:18 <@mako> thanks everyone! 18:19 < e_s_p> The awesome part is that now that everyone's signing off 18:20 < e_s_p> I can completely re-write the Gobby document to reflect my own personal beliefs. 18:20 < e_s_p> Mwahahahaha! 18:20 < e_s_p> Actually, I gotta go too. 18:20 < e_s_p> Thanks all! 18:20 -!- e_s_p [n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro] has left #netservices [] 18:33 -!- luisv [n=louie@terminus-est.gnu.org] has quit Read error: 113 (No route to host) 18:34 -!- vasile [n=vasile@terminus-est.gnu.org] has quit Read error: 113 (No route to host) 18:35 -!- mlinksva_ [n=cc@terminus-est.gnu.org] has quit Read error: 113 (No route to host) 18:43 -!- jwyg [n=jwyg@78.147.96.102] has quit "Leaving" 19:18 -!- KragenSitaker [n=kragen@panacea.canonical.org] has joined #netservices 19:18 < KragenSitaker> nobody left! 19:18 < KragenSitaker> i mean, everybody left 19:18 < KragenSitaker> nobody is left --- Day changed Mon Mar 17 2008 00:51 -!- mlinksva_ [n=cc@c-76-118-182-126.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #netservices